Harp tone+ with small amps/big amps?

[9000]

What amps are likely to receive the most benefit from the Harptone+?
Smaller amps, cleaner amps such as a Brown Concert, solid state or what?
I'd appreciate hearing your experiences. I read the testimonials with interest but most do not include the equipment that they used them with.
All the best!
Jay

[T-Bone Bruce]

Hi Jay, and welcome.
The Tone+ can help with any amp, although the difference is more noticeable in amps that haven't been modded for harp IMO. Stephen has the most experience of anyone here with using it through different rigs, and hopefully will fill us in with more on his experiences.
The Tone+ also allows you to turn down the signal going into the amp, without the problems you normally get in turning down the mic with regard to impedance matching.

[jspiers]

I got one and it made a tremendous difference with my SJ410. Very happy with the purchase. The impedance matching alone probably helps as much as anything, but the ability to turn dials instead of swapping tubes to match the amp to a variety of mics is very useful.

[Stephen S]

Jay, big question, here's a provisional answer: I am still trying to classify the Tone+ effect on amps and mics, and wishing I had more examples and especially more time handy to do it with. You know, there are a lot of different types of amps out there, so I will try to address some common types at this point. There has been a lot of discussion of Tone+ use with specific amps and mics on this forum, if you use the search function.

Let me say this: the Tone+ adds meat where it is needed, insofar as that is possible. Got that? There is a limit to what you can add with every amp: bass feedback puts one ceiling on it, while the ability of the amp to project bass clearly creates another limit, what your taste deems muddy rather than fat is another. Case in point: a baby amp can't put out as much bass as a big amp can. All you can do is turn the baby amp into a better scale model of a meaty big amp, putting a bigger proportion of bass into its tone. Three-knob EQ on the amp gives you more ways to shape what the Tone+ gives, as opposed to one-knob or no-knob.

Talking about the ability to support bass: that requires some tightness to the power supply to project more lows with a punch to them. That means a GZ34, 5V4 or solid state rectifier, for one thing, plus some bigger front-end filtering if possible. Early amplifiers seldom have that; if you've got something like a tweed Princeton, the Tone+ is more subtle there: it'll give a more robust and fat rounded tone, but not as big, punchy a bottom end like a Harpgear 1 unless you change the rectifier and front-end filtering. Contemporary amps have an edge there: their cheap-a$$ SS rectifiers come in handy with the Tone+.

The Tone+ also doesn't do much with most amps that are already voiced for harp, mainly functions as an outboard impedance matcher if you need that, for a pedal maybe, or to optimize a mic. I can use it with my tweaked SJ1 and get a bit more bass, and a lot more bass feedback, which is not useful. Same thing with tweaked baby amps. If the voicing's already there, that fat, lower-voltage kind of sound, what the Tone+ adds is submerged in that, or the Tone+ may drive a fat tone over the line into muddiness. Exception is impedance matching, more of a mic and pedal issue, but can dramatically change how a rig sounds if needed.

Hence, the biggest change is with many of the contemporary amps you can walk into a store and buy. Things like the Crate Vintage or Peavey Classic series, Epiphone Valve Jr, Fender Pro Jr or Champion 600, Gibson's little Les Paul amp: stuff with a stiff power supply but skinny, high-voltage modern voicing. Those get the biggest change. If you've got a vintage amp that happens to have some of that voicing and power supply, you may be able to get that kind of change also: I did it with a couple of Supros here, a smallish Supreme and a midsize Rhythm Master.

That's what I mean by making the biggest difference where needed and where possible. Along the where-needed lines, higher-key harps can be audibly fatter with the Tone+, starting around the key of C, with the abovementioned amps, really fills out; and low-octave harps' voice may drop right into the bass area the Tone+ Bass knob pumps up and let you bring those harps up in a mix.

Bruce mentioned using the output control: that's another area, again something that works better with a modern voicing, in this case amps that run too clean too far up the volume knob, especially when you need a LOT of volume out of a big amp before feedback, or want to bring down the output of a big amp. I think a brown Concert would fall into the latter category. In this case, tonally you are trying to get some compression happening by overdriving tubes somewhat. The Tone+ may be able to give you a similar sound via boosting lows at normal amp volumes; depends on the rig. Usable max output is sort of a separate issue from the tone; you can use the Tone+ to run a big amp up into the zone where an AFB+ noticeably changes amp tone (for the worse) to suppress feedback. If you absolutely, positively have to get stupid, stupid, earplug-type loud before feedback with a big amp, the Tone+ can be one way to get there. You can also go in an opposite direction, take a rig that is grooving nicely and cut its overall output down in increments without killing the tone, at least to a point.

Solid-state amps, you'd be at the mercy of whatever is going on there to start with, I think, how authentically they distort for one thing. Those usually have a tight power supply, at least. At least sometimes, just impedance matching into one of those amps might be a surprisingly good result; I know it is with a Danelectro Nifty Fifty (turn the volume up a little past halfway, minimal dirty knob, use outboard impedance matcher) or those little 10" or 12" Marshalls with the preamp tube, wish I knew the model name.

So far for me, where amps are concerned, the two main categories where the Tone+ is most useful would be vintage amps whose circuit you don't want to modify to make harp-specific, due to originality/value and/or guitar use; or contemporary guitar amps from the big makers that are harp-mediocre.

Bruce & Joe touched on other important considerations: Really, think rig, not just amp: mic, cords, pedal(s), amp(s) or PA. The Tone+ changes what you can do with the entire system, not just the amp. You can use the Tone+ to make an amp, pedal, and mic all work better at the same time or focus on one link in the chain separately.

I don't know if this is a great answer. I haven't had time to try out the Tone+ on a brown Concert or Crate VC112 or Hohner Hoodoo Box, etc. You might tell us if you had some specific applications in mind--I'll hazard a guess if I can.

Something to keep in mind is that Randy is working up the Harp Attack distortion pedal, and that is a relatively simple "harp tube screamer" to put between a harp mic and a clean amp for a harp-friendly overdriven sound. I have been promiscuously plugging a beta version into every public PA in town that I can to evaluate it for travelling light, but first thing I did when it arrived was run it into my slightly modded Crate VC508 (master volume, ceramic Sig 8 w/ H cap) and that is easily the best that amp has sounded, simply because it put a saturated tube stage in front of the gawdawful SS input stage of the Crate. Three knobs, two jacks, runs on two 9v if you want. The Tone+ in itself is a clean device, though it has a number of ways to bring out an amp's dirt; the Harp Attack can inject dirt up front, if that is the main thing needed. He really created it as a way to travel light, but it has potential for tube amp use also. Is that the kind of thing you are more curious about?

[arnenym]

Yesterday i tried it on a Laney LC 30.
Its not a harp friendly amp.
But with the harptone+ it became to a useable amp. I believe it could be a real good rig if i had the time to turn it in better and test it more.
I just doing a short sit in on 3 songs.

[Stephen S]

Arne brings up a really good point: Are you looking to make a lot of amps become viable for harp? Are you thinking of making some already-viable amps sound great for harp? The Tone+ can do both; I focused more on the latter in my previous answer.

[9000]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'll stay tuned as more of the folks report their experiences with different amps.
All the best,
Jay

[justjoe]

Lately, I had been playing through a Meteor Mini Meat, but I needed to bring a physically smaller amp. I decided to try the Harp Tone+ with a Shure 520DX into my Harpgear Double Trouble. I think I'm going to try this combo out a bit more in the next few weeks. These were the results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY816AtrGa0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7GkGHQhBKg

[T-Bone Bruce]

That sounds mighty fine Joe!

[Kingley]

Yeah I agree. It sounds great with lots of bottom end.
I'm glad you posted those, because I'd seen them and was going to ask you if it was the Mini-Meat you were using that night. Now obviously I don't need too. Just out of interest Joe, do you have any videos of you using the Mini-Meat in a live situation?

[justjoe]

Hi Paul - I don't have any videos using the Mini Meat live. I'll take one Tuesday night.

[Kingley]

Great Joe! Thanks.
I'm looking forward to hearing it.

[arnenym]

I have to admit i didnt like HT+ from the beginning, but i tried it again on my Edgar just after i heard Joes nice sound and fat tones on Youtube. Wow! It does a great job...

[justjoe]

I had some time to fool around with a Meteor Mini Meat (2x8, 1x10 w/ 5881's). I plugged a Shure 520DX into the Harp Tone+ and went into the Meat channel. I cranked the volume to 6, tone and presence knobs to about 7 on the amp. I set the Tone+ as follows: Bass at 5 o'clock (full), Treble at noon, Volume at about 9 o'clock which was right at the brink of feedback. I stuck a Zoom H2 behind the amp and recorded this.

http://mrjoe.dyndns.org/music/Solo_2.mp3

I'm going to take this combination out this week and see how it sounds in a live setting.

[Kingley]

Sounds great Joe!
Very different to the HarpGear Double Trouble. Much more of an "old school" style tone to my ear. I like it a lot!
Looking forward to hearing it in a live setting.